Anything my team is capable of doing they are capable of simply doing from the start which presents a large advantage over my opponent's team which in attack either leave themselves vulnerable, or are incapable of really doing so without some amount of time passed in the first place.
With the scans I've shown previously these points all hold strong
Durabelle
First consider the difference between Durabelle's unarmed striking and Chi Long swinging with his hammer:
- One according to my opponent only creates a 10 meter deep crater of this radius
- The other caused this level of destruction
Durabelle cannot match up Chi Long without a weapon, and getting a weapon is hard, keeping a weapon is harder:
- If Durabelle finds a weapon, getting hit by anyone automatically results in her losing said weapon
- If Durabelle finds a weapon, swinging it automatically results in her losing said weapon
- My team is capable of ridding the arena of any weapons
- Even with a variety of weapons littered around, that does not mean she would simply pick up the nearest one and charge my characters, it was stated that she would rather find a tree and rip it out of the ground over picking up a 10 foot long spear.
On top of the fact that without a particularly large weapon Durabelle is at a massive disadvantage in terms of reach from the outset if she attempts to engage Chi Long.
Super Skrull
Super Skrull has the disadvantage in the fact that doing anything leaves him vulnerable to attacks, while your arguments have been made that he has several methods of attacking, all of these leave him open to simply being killed by Enel or Coco the moment he drops his shield.
- Shooting fire? No shield
- Stretching his arms towards my team? No shield
- Trying to use shields offensively? He literally had to be touching the singular person he did this to and wasn't using a shield on himself.
- Putting his hand down their throat? Most things would be smart enough to not try, but with Skrull who knows.
Anything Skrull does invalidates his ability to use a shield, any time Skrull isn't using a shield he's vulnerable to dying in one hit, he's either being useless or dead.
- Skrull cannot shield on reaction, Enel's lightning is hundreds of times faster than himself
- Skrull cannot completely shield himself and effectively attack at the same time
- Skrull has no reason to shield at the outset of the match
On top of the fact that your arguments don't really present a way for Skrull to actually land any of his attacks, if he's stretching his a mile towards my team that will still take enough time to just kill him well before that happens.
- By your arguments Skrull would try to use invisibility to attack, when he is unaware of the fact that this is useless against 2/3rds of my team both of whom can one tap him with a projectile.
- My team is hundreds of meters away, one has precognition and a speed boost that makes him hundreds of times faster, the other one has super visual acuity and can predict the future.
Skrull can't tag my team, Skrull trying to tag my team gets him killed, Skrull has no reason not to try it.
Paragon
Read: Durabelle
Paragon can't copy my team, 1 being immune and the other 2 being out of his range, and he can't do anything to Chi Long unless he finds a weapon first, and getting hit removes his weapon.
This along with the self imposed argument that sufficiently powerful attacks could launch Paragon out of the range of DuraBelle's powers leading him to die on impact, any hit at this tier would be more than sufficiently powerful to do so, every feat I've linked for Chi Long is clearly more than enough to cause this.
The singular source of flight in the battle is Super Skrull, who is by far the most likely to die first given the myriad of reason I've presented.
No one on my opponent's team can match up to Chi Long while unarmed, searching for a weapon is the most likely way to make it impossible to find a weapon, doing so will outright doom his team.
In a team fight, 2/3 of my character are effectively untouchable and can take out one of member of your team with supreme ease, even if their attacks are not incredibly effective against the remainder, they are still capable of easily removing their weapons and slowing them down over time. This advantage alone is enough for Chi Long to overcome the remainder, if Durabelle dies Paragon becomes useless, if Paragon gets hit once he's liable to simply die as a result of being knocked out of range.
/u/mikhailnikolaievitch
2
u/mikhailnikolaievitchFeb 12 '20
Overview
Team Buster establishes clear and decisive advantages from the outset of the match they maintain and multiply throughout, synergizing with eachother as they sweep through the competition. To obfuscate such obvious advantages, my opponent's description of the match makes several convenient assumptions, breaks apart the team to talk about them as individuals, and describes his own characters employing a contrived hit-and-retreat strategy they never use. TB's win cons remain simpler, more effective, and inevitable.
First and foremost bear in mind that everything said for SuSkru can also be said for Paragon, and many of them can be said for DuraBelle as well. Invisibility and forcefields are advantages that apply to teammates regardless of power copying, but with his mimicry Paragon utilizes both SuSkru's powers and DuraBelle's durability. All of the "but Skrull dies if he does that" counters are moot with regard to Paragon.
Invisibility
The only opponent even proposed to be able to see TB is Coco. Enel and Chi Long cannot land attacks on opponents they cannot see. They are both freely attacked by opponents they cannot anticipate. Reliance on Coco to tell them who they're fighting is not only ineffective, but an active hindrance throughout the fight.
Even besides, Coco can also not see TB. The word "light" does not apply exclusively to "visible light," it applies to ultraviolet light and infrared light as well. Even so, Coco's vision explicitly can't see the entire spectrum of infrared/UV light and is merely better than a human's. If that isn't enough, more explicit descriptions of the invisibility power specify that it controls infrared and ultraviolet forms of light as well. There's no evidence to suggest Coco can see who he's fighting.
Shields/Multitasking
My opponent invented the idea that SuSkru cannot multitask with his shields somehow, hinging a huge part of his argument on a baseless claim.
- Here SuSkru uses his forcefields simultaneously with his other powers
- Here he destroys a spaceship with his fire while using all his other powers, including his forcefield.
- Here he does exactly what my opponent said he wouldn't, attacking with fire while shielding.
- Here he creates a hole in his forcefield specifically for his fire.
- He can even project an invisible forcefield on a target while shooting flames at them.
The fact that all my opponents' projectiles are useless when a forcefield prevents them from making contact is devastating to his case, so instead he's had to outright lie about why they couldn't be used, or else contrive a reason why SuSkru would deny himself obvious defensive advantages. And, again, TWO members of TB have this ability, allowing one to cover for the other at all times even if this wasn't an absurd made up limitation.
Elasticity
There are two main advantages of elasticity, with the first being the way it synergizes with invisibility in general. Enel's lightning, for instance, is not only firing blind, but firing blindly at a target with an endless array of unconventional shapes. Elasticity bears not on a question of speed, as my opponent wanted to make it, but on a question of accuracy as SuSkru/Paragon become extremely hard to hit.
The second advantage is how it synergizes with Paragon in particular, effectively increasing his range in all regards. My opponent seemed to think the advantages of reach were insurmountable when Chi Long's war hammer was paired against an unarmed DuraBelle, but Paragon is essentially a DuraBelle with a much longer reach who can retrieve weapons without needing to go on the scavenger hunt my opponent keeps describing.
Heat
We got a classic "it misses" defense out of this, as 2/3rds of the opposition have literally no way to defend against SuSkru/Paragon's most common and effective ranged attack. Bear in mind here that SuSkru can make his flames invisible as well, so the idea the opposition will dodge something they can't anticipate is downright silly.
That's just 2/3rds of the team that weren't proposed to have heat durability. Chi Long had one proposed, but it involved made up meaningless terms without comparison to SuSkru's steel-melting temperatures. These attacks remain effective at the height of the NYC skyline, putting their range even at a lowball around the starting distance. Regardless of distance, the heat remains a factor in the melees my opponent proposed as they combine with punches and grapples the opposition has 0 resistance to.
Energy Absorption/Redirection
My opponent's only counter to SuSkru absorbing energy in this feat massively above anything his team outputs was to call the language "flowery" and to question the size of the "spaceship" destroyed in the explosion.
- SuSkru absorbing "near infinite heat" is said twice in two separate issues, & the amount of energy SuSkru absorbed is compared to a sun twice in two separate issues. There is no language or frame of reference to say the heat is anything less than monumental.
- The "spaceship" destroyed in the explosion SuSkru absorbs is the Harvester of Sorrows,a Death Star-like space station that destroys planets and is ludicrously larger than anything the opposition has destroyed.
There is 0 reason to believe the energy SuSkru absorbs and redirects is anything but vastly beyond what Enel/Chi Long's attacks put out.
Electricity
A fat note here about the assumptions my opponent is making to describe this attack. He's saying SuSkru wouldn't be able to absorb lightning because he couldn't anticipate the attack, which would also require him to not have a forcefield up and not be invisible and to ignore any other lightning attacks Enel threw before targeting SuSkru himself. Why would this attack ever land, and why would SuSkru be totally unprepared for it if it did??
Regardless, electricity is completely ineffective against SuSkru.
- Thor's electricity constitutes 1/3rd of any interaction with electricity SuSkru has ever had, whereas he's taken countless different concussive hits with huge variances in power. It's far easier to call the hit he took an outlier (which is why I never brought it up) than the electrocution -- we don't just dismiss the entirety of an issue at our convenience.
- Regardless, it was my opponent who brought up Thor scaling at all, trying to cite it as a limitation for SuSkru's electrical resistance without ever citing its strength. I did not propose it as a feat, it was my opponent who proposed it as an antifeat without any evidence. This is the weirdest oblique OoT claim I've ever seen -- if we want to dismiss SuSkru surviving Thor's lightning as an outlier then 100% of the time SuSkru was attacked by electricity (itself a higher voltage than Enel has ever produced) it didn't work.
- Since my opponent seems incapable of describing feats accurately, here is the feat where SuSkru decidedly did not "trip and fall" as my opponent claimed.
- Power cancellation is the dumbest argument presented in this debate. Originally SuSkru's powers were fueled by a giant beam sent from space. If the beam was blocked by an electromagnetic circuit it WOULD rob him of part of his powers BACK THEN, but even the following issue brought up his growing independence from the beam (my opponent used all those scans while ignoring the parts I highlighted). In the modern day the beam is never mentioned, and has likely been destroyed along with the entirety of his homeworld. SuSkru absorbed enough of the beams energy over the years he no longer needs it/uses it.
- The electricity weakness is similarly contrived, as obviously SuSkru's powers work fine after being electrocuted. Since my opponent wants to bring in Thing scaling, here's 6 different times Thing gets electrocuted (once by 100,000 megavolts) and he shrugs all of them off, notably without losing his powers.
Summary
SuSkru's copious offensive and defensive options (replicated in Paragon) were worth particular attention in this match, both because of their integral role in the fight at hand and because my opponent's blatantly deceptive tactics and hail mary arguments needed heavy contextualization. If nothing else, this section of the debate should readily demonstrate that very little of what my opponent says can be taken at face value, whereas I am extremely willing to speak candidly in view of a full context.
Super Skrull and Paragon cannot be seen by the competition, nor hit by the competition, nor avoided by the competition. They maintain several uncountered win cons while being completely immune to most every ranged offensive option my opponent presented.
1
u/mikhailnikolaievitchFeb 12 '20
Nuke Map
The tournament itself quantified DuraBelle's strikes using NukeMap, including specifically the map that so far outclasses Chi Long even at DuraBelle's bare minimum 1 TJ. This leaves my opponent between a rock and a hard place with two options:
A) Either the NukeMap evidences striking superior to Chi Long, in which case he's hilariously unprepared for this fight, or
B) The NukeMap is not a legitimate frame of reference, in which case Chi Long is being argued to be several times stronger and more durable than the tier setter while also being capable of depriving her of weapons she allegedly needs.
At one point my opponent even argued DuraBelle's strikes are better than NukeMap presents, as the TJs of her punches are more effective when concentrated in a fist than presented with the surface area inefficiency of an explosion. I don't think there's even a coherent argument being made here against DuraBelle's striking, and the effort to argue Chi Long's as superior without OoTing Chi Long is creating mental gymnastics that, while impressive, are hardly convincing.
Comparison to Chi Long
The feat used as reference for Chi Long is extremely lackluster for several reasons.
- The scan mentions bringing "the fire of hell to the surface," indicating there is a component to the damage dealt completely separate from the KE.
- It's still a fraction the total size of what the NukeMap presents, with the heavy damage centered around 4 modern city blocks that are obviously larger than the maaaybe 1 block Chi Long destroys.
- The NukeMap is also accounting for destruction to modern building materials as DuraBelle inflicts "severe damage" to "heavily built concrete buildings." The structures in Chi Long's feat are ancient & wooden, and many of them even appear somewhat intact afterwards.
So DuraBelle more thoroughly destroys superior materials in a wider radius with pure KE than Chi Long can possibly replicate even when assisted by magical fire. There is no world in which he is superior here.
Weapons
Remember that all the comparisons above deal exclusively with the conceit that DuraBelle is attacking with her bare minimum amount of strength. I tried to stress the importance of this bare minimum energy output mandated by the wording in DuraBelle's RT, but my opponent misconstrued the point. I never argued for DuraBelle exceeding her 3 TJ limit, just that she must by necessity be able to surpass her 1 TJ baseline.
This strategy to disarm DuraBelle/Paragon is asinine anyways. They can imbue their powers on the objects they touch, and their powers include MetaVerse's proportional durability to lightning and acid. Even that aside, my opponent is proposing that his characters would specifically target weapons (even proactively before the fight starts despite not knowing TB's abilities) while also proposing my characters will outright refuse to fight until they find exactly the right specific weapon. There's been no evidence for any of this, and the evidence my opponent tries to cite makes it explicitly clear that she's willing to use what she has available.
Summary
So it recap: DuraBelle literally can't be weaker than Chi Long, even her bare minimum strength devastates him, weapons in her hand can't be destroyed, she likely won't be disarmed anyways, and my opponent will continue to use whatever tactics they can, however dishonest, to hide that. The elephant in the room he wants you to ignore, of course, is that neither Coco nor Enel were even proposed to have a semblance of resistance to the baseline attacks both DuraBelle and Paragon are capable of.
Can copy the opposition
I literally linked evidence of Chi Long having a lifeforce, and established that if he's even analogously alive Paragon can copy him. My opponent ignored that and wants to focus on the crystal housing his lifeforce instead as if it at all counters the point. Wonder Woman was also made from lifeless materials and then had a life force imbued in her and Paragon copied her just fine.
My opponent's question, "In what way does "consume blood to keep yourself alive" default to them being organic, they are literally made out of crystal" basically answers itself. Even apart from the fact that Chi Long has a lifeforce (so he's alive) and Paragon has copied other beings made from earth, the mere fact that Chi Long has a metabolism requiring sustenance is a pretty friggin clear indicator of being organic.
Here's the scan my opponent cited to say Paragon NEEDED direct contact to copy the Golem and here is the panel my opponent ignored where Paragon says he can feel the Golem's powers before establishing contact and also says he's only establishing contact so he can turn himself into a bridge. Since it was left out, here's the part where Paragon establishes contact so Superman can pass into the Golem.
There's literally no reason Paragon couldn't copy Chi Long, and he certainly wouldn't require physical contact to do so. Once again, Chi Long was the only resistance proposed here -- Coco and Enel are presumed to be conveniently out of range, either allowing the invisible elastic Paragon to surprise them or leaving them as dessert after Paragon/DuraBelle devour Chi Long in a melee.
Hit out of range
My opponent's characterization of Paragon very weirdly assumes that he neither has SuSkru's powers nor that DuraBelle is actually anywhere around while he fights. Under the absurd circ*mstance that the fight plays out like my opponent describes (necessitating SuSkru suicidally ignoring all his options for defense) the fight still necessitates that Chi Long take on DuraBelle and Paragon simultaneously. I already argued for why Paragon's skill would allow him to land the first hit, but my opponent is willfully ignoring that Chi Long is in a 2v1 by necessity.
Chi Long trying to hit Paragon out of range leaves him open to DuraBelle OHKOing him. Since the other 2/3rds of my opponent's team rely entirely on running away from DuraBelle in the absence of any ability to hurt her, her victory thereafter will still be an inevitability.
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